Scottish Social Security Consortium

Minutes of meeting 27 February 2003

Present:
Abigail Bremner Citizens Advice Scotland
Susan Drew Highland Advice and Information Network
Leah McKend Drumchapel Law and Money Advice Centre
Judith Paterson Child Poverty Action Group in Scotland
Danny Philips Child Poverty Action Group in Scotland
Angela Toal The Action Group

Apologies:
Apologies were received from the following group members:

David Brownlee Age Concern Scotland
Alice Jarvie Help the Aged
Stephanie Miller Update
Derek Sinclair Carers UK

Welcome
Danny welcomed everyone to the meeting and outlined the group's remit to share information on social security benefits.

Pension Service
Liz Semple, Partner Liaison Manager, and Heather Ferry, Customer Liaison Manager, within the Pension Service also attended the meeting.

Local Service
Liz Semple explained the current state of play with the Pension Service. There were two regional pension centres in Scotland - at Motherwell and Dundee. Customers were able to contact the centres by telephone, e-mail or letter but could not have face to face contact to resolve any pension issues. The Pension Service recognised that some customers would need face to face contact and had therefore created their 'local service'. The purpose of the 'local service' was to provide extra support to claimants in customer-focussed venues (ie. the sorts of venues where customers were likely to be rather than the traditional social security office setting) in a manner that was tailored to meet local conditions. In each local area, the Pension Service would offer the following services:

• A home visiting service
• Surgeries – both appointment-based and drop in
• Signposting
• Benefit information services
• Take-up campaigns

Liz also emphasised that there had been a change of culture with the introduction of the Pension Service which some organisations used to dealing with the old DSS would be pleasantly surprised by. The Pension Service recognised the importance of:

• Reducing the stigma of claiming benefits – this is why they wanted to base themselves in community venues rather than in social security offices and to work with partner organisations.
• Encouraging customers to claim their full entitlement – part of the organisation's mission statement related to fighting pensioner poverty and they would be involved in take-up campaigns
• Providing information on a whole range of services for pensioners. Local officers would have guidance which would allow them to signpost customers to relevant local agencies in relation to other queries they may have.

Working in partnership
In order to deliver the local service, the Pension Service would be working in partnership with relevant local organisations. From the Pension Service's point of view, partnership working enabled them to tap into another organisation's reputation and expertise in order to access pensioners. For instance, pensioners trusted the partner organisations the Pension Service had identified and were therefore more prepared to approach them for advice and information than they might be the DWP. The Pension Service could also tap into services provided by partner organisations = eg. benefits checks or pensioner information – to make sure they were providing a more holistic service.

Liz emphasised that the relationship would work two ways. The Pension Service would be able to tap into the resources and expertise of the partner organisation. In return, the Pension Service would promote the services of the partner organisation – eg. signposting customers to them – and act as an up-to-date source of information on Pension Service issues. For example, the Pension Service contact could organise training for a partner organisation's staff, provide a trusted point of contact and ensure information was circulated from the DWP.

Timescale
Liz gave the following dates for the development of Pension Service services:
April 2002 – the Pension Service was created to deal with pensioner issues within the DWP
September 2002 – the Pension Service local service went 'amber' – staff in place and working locally to identify partners
March 2003 – the Local Service goes live, offering surgeries and information provision in the community
October 2003 – the introduction of the Pension Credit

Discussion
The following issues were raised in discussion:

• Susan Drew commented that she had noticed the change in attitude from Pension Service staff in the Highland area – they were much more prepared to recognise the expertise and independence of local organisations than had previously been the case. HAIN, the local authority and the Pension Service were currently discussing partnership working in community outreach venues.
  
  
• The current situation in the Pension Service was that all Minimum Income Guarantee work had been centralised in the pension centres in Motherwell and Dundee. However, the Retirement Pension case load was still dispersed in local social security offices where there were no Pension Service staff to deal with issues. Staff at call centres would do their best to answer Retirement Pension issues. It was not intended to have the Retirement Pension case load migrated to the pension centres until 2005.
  
  
• There were issues around the independence of voluntary organisations. For instance, the CAB Service had rejected the idea of holding surgeries in CAB offices as this may lead to confusion in the minds of clients as to the independence of advisers from Government agencies. The Pension Service stressed that there were many other levels of partnership working which could mutually benefit clients.
  
  
• There were also issues around the customers' expectations of the services to be provided by the Pension Service. The old Benefits Agency had had a very stand offish role in relation to advising customers. However, with the new way of working, there was a danger that customers would expect a higher standard of service than the Pension Service would be able to provide – ie. holistic advice across a whole range of different social security benefits. Liz stressed that the Pension Service would be providing advice and assistance across a range of benefits – however, it emerged that Pension Service staff would be focussing on MIG and RP as core benefits, with staff trained to 'be aware' of issues around AA or war pensions. Liz hoped that partner organisations could complement the work of Pension Service staff to provide a holistic service – eg. by providing benefits checks or supporting appeal work.
  
  
• The Pension Service highlighted that, where officers out at surgeries did not instantly have the information that customers were requesting, they could call colleagues to check, or even get back to the customer later, once they had found out the answer.
  
  
• The Pension Service would not have a role in demystifying pension provision to the general public – their remit did not touch on private pensions at all. However, they were involved in giving 'pre-retirement' presentations to various organisations which looked at the state Retirement Pension and issues such as forecasting.
  
  
• Judith Paterson noted that problems had been reported in the North of England in relation to the new Pension Service set up and a local take-up campaign. The normal form of take-up campaign for the voluntary sector would involve passing on the details of clients who wished to be sent a claim form to the DWP. This would usually involve posting a whole load of slips containing address details to the DWP. In this case, the pension centre had not been able to handle the information as they were set up to deal with telephone enquiries. As a result, the slips were dumped. Liz Semple agreed to follow this issue up.
  
  
• Despite its new remit to promote take up, the Pension Service would retain its interest in fraud. Therefore, where officers found evidence that a customer was receiving more than their entitlement (eg. undeclared occupational pension or savings), this would be pursued as appropriate. Abi Bremner also raised issues around overpayments and the pursual of older people when recovery was discretionary. Liz Semple noted the distress this could cause to older people and agreed to look into the issue.

Minutes of previous meeting
The minutes of the previous meeting were agreed.

DLA/AA trial in Glasgow
In relation to matters arising, Judith Paterson noted that the trial of a personally tailored DLA form was still underway in the Glasgow Disability Benefits Centre (which covered the whole of Strathclyde and well as the Western Isles). In addition, the DWP were now intending to trail a new AA form. The form had already been tested, to much reported success, in Bristol. It was intended to double check its effectiveness in the Glasgow trial before rolling it out nationally. The new AA form was actually a redesigned, shorter form (rather than simply cutting out the bits the claimant didn't need, as was the case with the DLA trial). Leah McKend had seen a copy of the form and it was agreed that she would pass this on to Abi Bremner and other interested group members.

It was also agreed that the group should monitor the DLA trial so that we could formulate an opinion on its success in advance of any DWP cheerleading. Judith Paterson agreed to design a short monitoring form which would be circulated to CABx and other advice agencies.

Information Exchange

Evidence from GPs
Susan Drew raised on-going problems with getting doctors to supply evidence for sickness and disability benefit appeals. One of the members of staff in HAIN had designed a questionnaire for use in Incapacity Benefit cases which had found favour with both doctors and tribunal members. He was currently trying to develop something similar in relation to DLA.

Angela Toal noted that they generally didn't have a problem with GP charging for evidence. However, they did experience difficulties in getting doctors to fill in medical certificates in relation to certain benefits. Judith notes that GP contracts required that they issued benefits-related medical certificates when requested (where the circumstances warranted it).

Direct Payment of benefits
Susan Drew highlighted issues around the direct payment of benefits into bank accounts. There was still a massive lack of information to claimants about the changes, as well as a built-in disadvantage for Post Office card accounts – the procedures in place made it more difficult for claimants to open Card accounts, meaning that they might opt for other account options instead. She noted that the letter which went to Child Benefit claimants did not mention Card accounts at all, while the Veterans' Agency letter covered them only very briefly.

Abi Bremner highlighted that she had received confirmation from the DWP that Post Office Card accounts would be subject to the law relating to bank arrestments (it had previously been hoped that, since they could only receive DWP and Inland Revenue payments, they might be exempt). Citizens Advice Scotland were currently campaigning in relation to the increased risk of bank arrestment when benefits were paid into bank accounts and would soon be meeting with the Scottish Executive.

Passport benefits
The latest issue of CPAG's Welfare Bulletin reported on entitlement to passported benefits such as free prescriptions and free school meals after the introduction of the new tax credits. Free prescriptions would be available to anyone with an income under £14,200 claiming Child Tax Credit or Working Tax Credit. The Scottish Executive had yet to decide on its policy towards free school meals, but CPAG were in touch with them on the issue.

Overpayments
Judith Paterson reported on Hinchy, a recent CPAG test case in relation to benefit overpayments. The Court of Appeal had held that the DWP cannot claim not to know something they already hold information on – eg. where the DWP knows a DLA claim is coming to an end, they cannot claim that they did not know that a disability premium should have been removed from a claimant's Income Support entitlement. However, where a claimant stops being entitled to DLA because they recover (ie. something the DWP would not already hold information on), the claimant has a responsibility to inform both the DLA section and the section dealing with any Income Support entitlement.

CPAG Scotland Welfare Rights Conference
Danny Philips reported that CPAG intended to hold a welfare rights conference at Glasgow Caledonian University on Friday 20th June. It was agreed that topics covered should be as diverse as possible in order to appeal to a wide selection of people working in welfare rights. The conference should also deal with both policy and practice. Suggested topics included: evidence collection for DLA appeals; Housing Benefit reforms/the issue of interim payments after 14 days; tax credits/Pension Credit; Incapacity Benefit reform; Social Fund reforms; direct payment of benefits into bank accounts and care in the community initiatives which overlapped with social security benefits (eg. Supporting People, direct payments, single shared assessment).

Supporting People
Several group members noted that new charges for community care services where soon to be introduced, and it was not clear how these would react with existing social work charges or initiatives such as Supporting People. It was agreed to request more information from Peter Stapleton at the Scottish Executive.

Topics for future meetings
Sir Richard Tilt of the Independent Review Service (which dealt with appeals of Social Fund decisions) would be attending the next meeting of the group. The Independent Review Service was as yet an underused option for clients unhappy with a Social Fund decision and had a good record of overturning decisions.

Other ideas for future meetings included:

• The Appeals Service modernisation programme
• Incapacity Benefit reform
• The results of the Glasgow DLA claim form trial - it may be especially interesting to compare the DWP assessment with any feedback the group has.
• Housing Benefit reform
• Direct payment of benefits into bank accounts

The group agreed that it may be worth considering having two speakers at a meeting and extending the length of time covered.

Date of next meeting
The next meeting would take place on Tuesday 13th May at the Citizens Advice Scotland offices in Edinburgh (note new location – map to follow).

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For more information contact:
Judith Paterson
Child Poverty Action Group in Scotland,
Unit 9, Ladywell
94 Duke Street,
Glasgow G4 0UW
0141 552 3303
email jpaterson@cpagscotland.org.uk

Abigail Bremner
Citizens Advice Scotland
Spectrum House
2 Powderhall Road
Edinburgh EH7 4GB
0131 550 1000
email bremnera@cas.org.uk